Unlimited
The Unlimited Podcast is a podcast for badass women who are on a journey to release learned limitations and live a more present, joyful, and intentional life. It's about reaching for the stars while keeping your feet on the ground. Your Host, Valerie Friedlander is an ICF certified coach, sociologist, business owner, and mom. You can find out more at www.valeriefriedlander.com and follow her on Instagram @unlimitedcoachval
Unlimited
Learning Self-Advocacy to Strengthen Collective Action with Jenique Jones
Learning self-advocacy to strengthen collective action is a critical component of sustainable social change. Those of us socialized as women are often conditioned to prioritize supporting others, which can make self-advocacy more difficult. However, by connecting to our own value and values, and speaking up for ourselves even when it’s uncomfortable, we lead by example and inspire others to do the same. Cultivating this sense of self and worth strengthens our resilience, reducing fragility when engaging with diverse perspectives. It also empowers us to lead collaboratively and contribute to collective action, rather than remaining trapped in hierarchical, individualistic, and oppressive ways of being.
In this episode of Unlimited, I invited Jenique Jones (she/her), Executive Director at WhyHunger, to join me in a conversation around social change through learning self-advocacy to strengthen collective action.
Some of what we talk about in this episode includes:
- The impact of how you talk to yourself
- Asking questions as advocacy for equity
- Collaborative vs authoritarian leadership
- Food and music as bridges for connection
LINKS FROM THIS EPISODE:
The Pressure to Love Your Job with Cristin Downs
Micro-Actions to Manifest Big Change with Taina Brown
Dealing with Impostor Syndrome
CONNECT WITH JENIQUE:
Website
LinkedIn
WhyHunger Instagram
WhyHunger TikTok
CONNECT WITH VALERIE:
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Get email updates
Hello, my friends and welcome to another episode of unlimited. Today we are talking about learning self advocacy to strengthen collective action. Those of us who are socialized as women so often want to support others or conditioned to support others, and that advocacy for others is safer, easier than advocating for ourselves. And yet, self advocacy lays the foundation for a sustainable advocacy as well as our own ability to engage collectively, which necessitates collaborative engagement, so to have that self connection, to have that understanding of ourselves and our own value and our own values, to be able to speak up for ourselves where it may feel uncomfortable is key for multiple reasons. One is because it leads by example. It sets the stage for others to do the same because they see it being done. It also is important because it allows us to also receive, to have a solid foundation in ourselves, a connection within ourselves, allows for resiliency, reduces fragility in our ability to hear other ideas and other experiences and ways of being, such that we can also lead in a collaborative way. We can feed into collective action. This podcast is based in the idea of individual empowerment with social systems awareness. And I felt like this topic is so key as we start to think, What does working together outside of this individualistic, hierarchical model look like when we think about the changes that we need to make in the world, and that idea of being the change that we want to see in the world. How does that then feed into that change, into thinking collectively and outside of individualistic thinking, and yet we live in this society that's functioning the way it is, so there is a lot of unlearning to be done and reconnection to ourselves to be done in order to be able to connect. But what does that look like, tangibly out in the world? So to engage this conversation, I invited Janique Jones, the executive director at why hunger, to join me with a diverse background, working in government and nonprofits, spanning the New York State Senate, the New York City Department of Education and City Harvest, Janique has been steadfast in her mission to improve the lives of marginalized and underserved populations and make a difference in the world. Janique comes to why hunger after 14 years serving as an integral part of the leadership of City Harvest, one of the largest food rescue organizations. As the Vice President of Program Operations and policy, she oversaw the distribution of 10s of millions of pounds of food to soup kitchens, food pantries and community food programs throughout New York City. She also worked tirelessly with partners to increase access to fresh produce and promote nutritious and budget conscious meal choices for residents recognized as a strategic partner and trusted advisor. Janique excels in defining strategies that align with why hunger's vision and drive programmatic growth. Her keen analysis of operations key projects and performance metrics guides critical decision making and steers organizational transformation. Her leadership qualities shine through in her people centered approach a native New Yorker. Janique lives in Brooklyn, New York with her wife, Kayla, some of the things that we talk about in this episode are the impact of how you talk to yourself, asking questions as advocacy for equity, collaborative versus authoritarian, leadership and food and music as bridges for connection. I am so excited to share this conversation with you. So now without further ado, let's get started. Janique shares such powerful nuggets in our conversation, I can't wait to share it with you. So now without further ado, let's get started. Hey there. I'm Valerie Friedlander, Certified Life business alignment coach, and this is unlimited. This podcast bridges the individual and the societal, scientific and spiritual, positive and negative, nerdy and no, there's just a lot of nerdy. Come on board, and let's unlock a light that's as badass as you are. Welcome, Jenique, I'm so excited to have you on unlimited today.
Jenique Jones:Thank you for having me, and I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Valerie Friedlander:Me too. Before we dive into this topic, I like to start off with a question of, What is a limit that you took for granted that you have since unlearned?
Jenique Jones:I think the limit that I took for grant... I don't know if I took it for granted or if it was just ingrained in me that I had to be perfect. You know that if I wanted a job, I had to fill every category. If I did a presentation, I couldn't, you know, they try to beat the ums out of you over all of those things and and realize that that was just a lot of unlearned behavior, and particularly being a black woman where, you know, got to know twice as much to get half as far, just having that in my brain and so and it was very freeing when I was like, You know what? I'm human. We're gonna make mistakes. Things aren't gonna be perfect. And stop beating myself up about that. I think it was a real it set me free.
Valerie Friedlander:When you say, set you free. Would you be willing to share a little bit about what difference did it make for you personally, and then also in terms of your work?
Jenique Jones:I think that there's a habit to beat up on yourself when you make mistakes or when you present in a way that is not quote, unquote perfect. And so I think it does more mental and emotional damage than anything, because I find that when you harp on the mistakes, you actually make more of them, because now you're so hyper focused. And so it's like when someone says, you know, try not to say this word, and then that's the only word in your head, yes. And so for me, it's just, I think, helped me from just a mental space, like, I don't stress over things, I let things go, which I am certain is going to lead to me living to be 107 that's the number I'm going for, just because I don't have to worry about high blood pressure and all those things.
Valerie Friedlander:Why 107?
Jenique Jones:I don't know. It's just, it's, it's a weird thing, like, I've always said, you know, if I win the lotto, it's going to be for $452 million just random numbers that I've picked out of the universe, but I think in a work capacity, where it's helped me is especially as a leader, I am able to model for other people that mistakes are okay, that it's about learning from them, it's not about beating yourself up. And so it allows me to be a better leader. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. In I talk to people around what cultivates trust in a space, and that ability to be oneself and to grow, which, if you're not making mistakes, or you're not allowed to make mistakes, you're not growing. So the ability to grow, to learn, to evolve, is a space that feels safer than one that is hyper critical and like you have to do all the things.
Valerie Friedlander:So that makes a lot of sense, as well as the focus on what you don't want, like something that I talk a lot about, which is, when people come to me, they usually tell me, when I say, like, why are we on a call? They're like, I want to feel less stressed.
Jenique Jones:Yeah
Valerie Friedlander:You know what we're focused on. Even if we're trying to move away from it, we're still it's like running backwards, like I'm running in, more likely to run into things than when I turn around and go, This is what I want more of. It's almost like we're conditioned to make it easier for the system to system.
Jenique Jones:Oh, yeah. Well, that's, that's the purpose, right? That's, that's why we've been ingrained with these things. Exactly.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah. So I think this feeds really nicely into our topic about self advocacy, and of course, it's how it feeds into then collective advocacy, because it's very hard to advocate for oneself when you're beating yourself up, when you're telling yourself over and over again that you haven't earned something, that you don't deserve something, what has been your experience with that shift for you, like going from the space of, okay, I don't have to be perfect, to being able to then advocate.
Jenique Jones:Yeah, and I think they're very closely related, because I think in letting go of I need to be perfect, it also allows you to accept who you are. You can't advocate for yourself if you think you're failing, or if you think you're not good enough because you're not meeting every standard, or you're not measuring up. So I think when you let go of one, it makes it a lot easier to then step up and be an advocate. It's why I think sometimes we see people who are wonderful advocates for others, because they give others the grace that they don't give themselves, and yet they don't do the self advocating. So for me, what that looked like was, and I'll just get personal for a minute, I was going through a divorce, and I think to me, that was like a failure, because you promised forever and did all these things, and now it's not working, and so kind of accepting that, no, not a failure. This relationship just didn't work. It put me in a different headspace, and that then led to all these other areas also within that it was Well, part of why this ended is because you weren't advocating for yourself in this relationship, right? You weren't saying what you needed, and by the time you said it, you let someone get used to 10 years of all their way, right? And now it's too late. So that just shifted things for me, like, in a big way. And this isn't that we're creeping up on, like almost 10 years where that went to work was, I was, I think I was an associate director at my organization. At that time, I was making about $80,000 a year from now, not chump change, but I constantly found myself in rooms with folks who were CEOs and senior directors and this and I'm like, Well, why am I here? And in some of those cases, I'll never forget, and I don't even think I was an associate director at this point, when this happened, going to a meeting with a major funder, and I'm there with my boss, my boss's boss and my boss's boss, so I'm there with, like, the CEO, and they're like, Yeah, you'll probably answer one or two questions. This. This meeting's going to be two hours. You'll you'll answer a couple of questions. All the questions were to me. I had to speak to these folks for about an hour and 45 minutes straight with no absolutely no prep, no nothing. But I knew the work, yeah, and I think that that's what led to one of my first promotions. But it also showed that I could be in these spaces. And so they put me in the more and more and more. But then the promotion stopped, the money stopped, and I was told that I was essential. I'm like, so what does that mean? I'm an essential part of this organization. If I'm a central part of this work, why am I not at the level of all these other folks? You know? Why am I the lowest paid person in these rooms? Why am I the person with this the lowest title. Why am I taking on work and leading teams without actual authority? And so when I started to ask those it's not like it was a light switch and the next day, it was like, here's your promotion. But what I would say is, you know, within eight years I was a VP, and that's like four show levels above where I was, and my salary was over $200,000 a year. That does not happen without me asking those questions and saying, What does it mean to be essential? Like, you're, you're, you're patting me on the back, but you're not doing more than that.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah, that is a very common theme, like, if we just take the kudos, right, like you just take the compliment, and the compliment is sufficient, and we do that if we don't, if we're questioning whether or not we've earned the place. I've done a number of talks about like imposter syndrome and how that's a conditioning, that's not a you thing, that's a environmental thing, that you internalized lack of belonging in a space. And first we have to identify where the issue is, and it's not a you issue, because when we've internalized it, we think it's an us issue, then we we don't self advocate, because we think it's a me problem, whereas, if you know, okay, it's this space. So what do I actually need to do? Maybe it's that mindset shift initially, to recognizing that I'm pointing at the wrong place, and now we're going to shift into, oh, okay, it's this space, which means that it's advocacy, yeah, and I love that. When we were first talking and you were like, talking about self advocacy, I was like, that's the word. That's when we make that shift. And people go, Well, what do I do now that I know that this imposter syndrome isn't a individual pathology, it's a social dynamic, a cultural issue, now I need to turn on advocacy. What does that look like?
Jenique Jones:I think, I think some of the work is also, it's not just waking up one day and saying, Give me what I'm worth. I think also a lot of self reflection, right? Like you also have to be honest with yourself, not just in terms of all things you're great at and good at. And yes, you guys should be doing these things. Me, you also have to be prepared for the things maybe you're not so good at, right, because people, the part of what's going to come back at you is, well, you need to work on this, and you need to do this, and you need to do that. So I think, one, you have to have those real conversations and recognize the weaknesses in the same way you do the strengths. For two reasons. One, you then go into that conversation and you've already beat them at the past. No one can say, Oh, you need to work on Oh, no, yep, I'm already on it. Look at this training. I'm doing this. Got it so what? Now? What's your excuse now? And I also think that we have to be prepared to walk away, like just because you advocate does not mean you're going to get a yes. Just because you ask does not mean you get a yes. I always say that I like to look at no is not yet. But there is a point, especially when we're talking about our careers or parts of our lives, where you do have to say, okay, not yet. Really is no or even if this will happen in the future, it's going to happen too far down the road, yeah, or maybe it's not yet for me, but it's a no here, so it needs to be elsewhere, that and then you go into that new space with this new confidence, with this new level of self advocacy, so you don't end up where you once were. And I think that that's really important. I also think we have to recognize and it's I talk a lot in my work about how pay equity is so important, and that's why women are more food insecure, for instance, than men. But we also have to take some ownership, because I think a big part of pay disparities is also that women don't advocate for themselves, right, I think. And I'm not saying all men are agreed, and they don't suffer from impostor syndrome and all of those things, but I do think that society has told them, Go out and get it. Be a hunter. Take what you want, right? And so they walk into spaces even if they're faking it, and they're doing that. And so the salaries are higher, and the perks and the benefits and all those things. So it's also up to us to say, No, I saw the I saw the salary range. I'm not taking the bottom look at this is all my experience.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah.
Jenique Jones:I think we have to do that too. I think we have to create that equity for ourselves.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah, and recognizing that there's probably more internalized BS that we do have to navigate to get to that point, but knowing that we have the right to be there too. And I have a colleague who does career coaching, Cristen Downs, who I interviewed a little bit ago, one of the things that she's said to me before when we've been talking about stuff, is, if you can check off all the boxes on a application, like, if you can be like, I've done all of the things I meet all the qualifications, you're overqualified.
Jenique Jones:Yes, exactly. Yeah. I mean, when I took the role at why hunger where I am now, there were a number of things I was like, I don't I've never done this or I, but it that was also the excitement of it, right? Because I knew that it was going to give me space to grow and to learn, and it was going to move me to whatever my next is. But if I took a role, that was exactly what I'm really good at, and I know how to do, I'm not getting ready for that next thing. I think part of self advocacy is also doing things that scare you a little bit.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah.
Jenique Jones:You know, I think that's a big part of it, too.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah. Well, and the the little small steps, the little micro actions as my friend, Taina Brown would say, little micro actions start teaching your brain a new thing, like, Oh no, I can do this. And, oh, I can advocate by doing those little steps. And sometimes you'll get like, I said no. And if somebody's so used to hearing you say yes, their conditioning is they're used to you saying yes, so they just kind of keep going, and you're like, No, no, I said, I said no. But oftentimes we'll process that is, oh, they didn't hear me. Maybe I shouldn't have said no instead of like, no, I got clear, like you were saying before. Of like, I took that time to really get clear with myself. This is what I want. This is what it needs to be, no, and it feels uncomfortable, and there's a tension, and you know that vibration to be like No, you mentioned starting to ask those questions. What does it mean to be essential? Do you recall what some of those initial conversations were like? How did you engage that? Did you go into the office and say, Hey, I'm curious. You said this word. What does that mean? Like, or, you know, did it? What are those, like, the micro things, the little the steps that you took to start kind of feeling out as this opening here? what's
Jenique Jones:You know, what's really interesting is I remember the exact day this happened. I remember where I was. It was because, you know, you have check ins with your supervisor. So we would have, like, every two weeks we would have a check in, and this was a check in. And I remember, she was like, I'm always in my office. Let's go do it in one of the little huddle rooms. So we're in this little like library nook at the office, and, you know, and we're talking, and she kind of, and I think that there was an element of, like, knowing that it was time, but not wanting to say it. So it's like, yeah, you know, we we really value you and this and that. And I was just like, so what does that mean? I think, you know. And what happened was, there was fluster, because normally say that, it's like, Oh, that's great. You value me and yay. But when I was like, what does that mean? Well, it, you know, there's some stuttering, and it's like, well, it means, you know, and this is where the word essential, then, you know, you're really one of our essential staff members. And, you know, we feel like, you know we, we're in a space right now where we would never want to lose you. And I'm like, okay, so how do you plan? Like, what does it look like to acknowledge someone being essential outside of just saying it?
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah.
Jenique Jones:We, I remember we ended the conversation with I'll get back to you. So, um, and I think that was because it was, it was not something that I had ever done, and I'm not even sure how many others had done it. But I especially when you're a nonprofit, I don't know, nonprofits tend to be predominantly women, and so I think that there's a lot of us are just like, I'm essential, yay. This is great.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah.
Jenique Jones:And again, it didn't happen overnight. They started out by saying, we're going to give you a larger bonus, so we're going to give you the bonus that the people above you get to start and I'm like, I'm not going to turn down more money. Thank you very much. But this is also once a year. I'm essential every day. So, let's continue talking. And I think it was just, it was really that also saying to myself not to just accept because that was easy. That would have been very easy for me to just be like, who I got this bigger bonus, this is exciting. Gotta pay off these credit cards. And this is gonna happen every year, because I will say that this is not a a one time thing. It is something I'm you still do right, even now, having this understanding, I'll have times where I'm like, This isn't right. I should say something, and then you, you kind of almost negotiate your with yourself in your head, okay, well, should I ask for this much? Was that too much? Maybe, you know, and you're having all of those moments. It's not a oh, I'm at this place of enlightenment, and it's all perfect. It's still a constant conversation. Or in my head, I have conversations with myself all the time.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah, yeah. I heard that there are some people who don't have like, the voice in their head. I'm not one of them, but that's wild to me. I'm like, wow, I don't know what that would be like at all. I have a committee. I mean, it's like, inside out in there.
Jenique Jones:Absolutely.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah. And I think the nonprofit world, so many people go into those spaces because they're passionate about something they want to make a difference. And there's a whole mythology around loving your job, yeah, if you love your job, you'll never work a day in your life. It's just came up with a clan, actually, and it's like, no, actually, you're still working.
Jenique Jones:Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander:Great if you love it. But like, that's all so often a way that people play on that in order to exploit your labor. And so we still need to recognize that it's work, even if you're passionate about it and you love it.
Jenique Jones:Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander:I'm wondering, as I imagine, that you're now in a position where people are coming and having those conversations with you as the manager position where people are coming to you. What would you want people who are stepping into self advocacy to know about from the perspective of the person that they're they might be advocating to? I
Jenique Jones:I think it depends on the person, right? Because not everybody is going to welcome your self advocacy.
Valerie Friedlander:Well, let's put it as like a from the perspective of a leader who actually is encouraging, like you're on a podcast advocating for self advocacy, like as somebody who appreciates that, like I and I got a piece of that, which is make sure you've done your work ahead of time, like, make sure you're getting honest. And honesty can look like acknowledging what you've accomplished and what you've done, as well as the places where you need to grow. But it could also be asking for that feedback. Of like, Hey, maybe I don't have a full perspective on what I need to be able to hit the next level, but I know that that should be available to me. What does that look like? But when you haven't been in that kind of position where you're the person receiving the conversation, like somebody is saying, hey, I want this, there's a lot of thoughts about, like, what is this other person thinking? And to be able to discern the difference between somebody who is not receptive, who, you know this space might be a no in because they're going to shut it down, versus somebody who's like, I want you to step I like, we need this like, collectively, as you said, we need more women, in particular because of these disparities, like to speak up and advocate for themselves and put themselves into positions where, you know, might be a little uncomfortable, because our society's conditioned us not to be there, but we need to do that. So as someone who's receptive to that, what would you want people to know who are trying to do this?
Jenique Jones:I think people tell you a lot about who they are. I think if you're paying attention, people tell you a lot about who they are, and so, for instance, with people who work with me, first thing I did when I started at my organization was, I mean, we're small enough to where I was able to do this, but I met with every last person on the team. I did not just meet with my direct reports. I met with everyone, and I asked questions, and I sought to understand where they wanted to go, how they saw themselves fitting into the organization. I asked questions like, you know, I know you people hate this, but where do you see yourself in five years? And do not feel like you have to say you see yourself here, because if you see yourself elsewhere, my job is, how do I prepare you for where you're going to go? Because without, while I'm doing that, I'm also getting the best out of you with that, that preparation. And so I think if you have someone who is coming to you in that space, you're pretty much in a good you're in a good space, right? You shouldn't worry about advocating for yourself, although there are still people on staff who are not comfortable with it because it's so foreign. But if you see, if you're in an environment where someone shuts down conversation, doesn't like feedback or discourse, that's probably not someone who's going to be open to your self advocacy, because in their mind, they already know what they want to do. So I think a lot of it is, is you can tell a lot when you just sit back and kind of listen see how people treat you, how do they engage you, how do they bring you in, and what does that look like?
Valerie Friedlander:That speaks very much to me about like what I believe leadership to be and in the framework of out of the individualistic thinking, right? Like when you're a real leader, you are thinking collectively. You're thinking about the team that you're leading. You are a unit. You are working together, even if you have different ideas and different opinions or different perspectives that that's valuable, because you recognize that there's a way to integrate to achieve an overall objective, that there's a reason you all are working together. And then there's the spaces where it's like, No, it's my ideas, it's the way I'm doing things. And you all just need to get on board and do what I say, the more authoritarian kind of viewpoint versus the collective viewpoint, and so that that lends itself into that idea of like, what does it look like to generate collective advocacy?
Jenique Jones:Yeah. And when you have a leader who is thinking about the people and how do we how do we move together for this time that we are together? And your work? I think a lot, you know, a lot of nonprofits are thinking collective advocacy, but if you're not acting that way internally, Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander:It's really hard to effectively act that way externally to the organization,
Jenique Jones:Yeah. And I think so this is one of the challenges, though, right? I think that people need to understand that collective doesn't mean we all agree. Doesn't mean we all share the same exact opinion, because I think that that is often how people view that, right? Like if you are working towards a goal and then you start to disagree that just throws a lot of things in the chaos. Because people are like, how can we work as a team if we all are into I'm like, the part of collective advocacy is also, it's, it's discourse, but it's, it's figuring out what the ultimate goal is. You might have your opinion about this. I might have my opinion about this, but we do both share the same opinion about this piece. So we're going to work towards that part, because I do believe that. I think every voice matters. I think that change rarely happens because of one person. Right? We like to think that, you know, I'm a civil rights buff. Martin Luther King changed the world. No. Martin Luther King was an amazing man who was a wonderful spokesperson for a movement, but there were hundreds of 1000s of people who made that collective action happen, and even within that, people had different ideas about how to move that movement forward. Not everybody wanted to be nonviolent, not everybody wanted to boycott. Not everyone want, you know, but there was this ultimate goal, right? Change rarely happens with one person, and so that's kind of the way that we work. I also think that collective action, especially within an organization, you cannot work in silos. You cannot have this team over here, kind of doing their thing and never interacting with this team, or people not being willing to compromise around how to get things done, right? So one team might say, you know, I'm just going to say comms. Might say, this is how I do things. And if the program team doesn't like it, well, tough. But our programs are what drives our work. So you guys kind of have to figure you guys got to figure out how to work together. And if you've had things broken down so much to where people can't work together, there's no way to move forward. And again, this doesn't we don't have to be friends. You don't all have to agree on everything, but you do have to figure out what's important, what's the ultimate goal, and how do we make this work?
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah, and there's a lot of talking about how important diverse voices, diverse ideas, diverse lived experience, diverse perspectives, opinions, are in solving the collective issues. Because how can we solve an issue if we're not actually looking and hearing from the people who are experiencing the issue, all the people who are experiencing the issue, yeah, not just my opinion about the people experiencing the issue.
Jenique Jones:No, I agree. And I think also it's, it's for for our work because we're talking about ending hunger. Ending hunger is not just saying, Here's food every day, right? It's deeper than that. And so the only way we can get our work done is if we do work as a collective. So we work with different movements, and we work with organizations that are focused on, you know, economic justice, right? We work with organizations that are focused on racial justice. We're working with folks who are, you know, focused on issues around sexuality and Patriarch, patriarchy, and because those are the things that actually lead to poverty and people being hungry and not having access to systems and all these things, right? We're not able to be the experts on all things, and so a big part of how we work is to bring those collectives together. And again, even within that, there are opinions with our partners and with others we work with. And it's like, well, that side of your house, we're gonna stay away from that. But this part, this part works, and this is the part we're working together. There's just no way that we can challenge the underlying systems that create inequality alone.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah.
Jenique Jones:And so that's where that collective action is just vital.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah. And we have to be able to step out of our own way, in our own heads, in order to be able to step into that space. It's one of the things I see so often, is when we have that bully in our heads, and we haven't recognized that it's not actually us, it's not necessarily based on a truth. Or we haven't learned to discern the difference between the lies we've internalized and what we actually might need to do, work around or grow around, to be able to see that clearly there's a fragility that comes from that where we can't receive new information, so it has to be me and mine instead of us and ours, because I can't receive that different idea or and I can't say, You know what? That's yours and this is mine, because I haven't figured out that within myself
Jenique Jones:Exactly. Yep, no. And I'm also thinking about something you said earlier, when you were like, what the self advocacy to the collective advocacy? I think you know that shift begins when you realize that your story is a part of a larger narrative.
Valerie Friedlander:Oh, yeah.
Jenique Jones:Right. And I think about this like, I'm going to take it from my own personal story, me advocating for myself set the stage for others on my team. So by me advocating for myself, I've given other people permission to do the same. Like there was a young man on my team who started as like a coordinator, and now he's like director of policy work and doing and he's like a coordinator in, like transportation. It wasn't even like he was a coordinator in policy, but it gave him the courage, or not even courage, but the permission to do the same, you know? And so I think when we think about our story, we're all connected. Everything is connected. It's why they also say things like representation matters and all of these things because we are a part of a larger a larger piece. So that's why, where that's self advocacy goes towards the collective as well.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah, oh, that's that's so powerful and so important. We talk about role models, you know? That's we. We all have that ability as we step into that ownership of our space, and to say, you know, this is I do belong here, and I am going to advocate, and then I can be in a role where I can show up for other people and be an example of what it looks like to think this way and engage this way. So one of the things that I know that you've brought up before that I think ties what we've been talking about together to one of my wrap up questions, which is the power of music and food to bring people together. Tell me more about what that means for you.
Jenique Jones:I mean, just, just think about it. There's a lot of things that can bring people together and so on and so forth. But even if you think about your family and having a family meal, right? And you think about those hot you think about holidays and such or and when I say family, I'm mindful that that could be friends. Friendsgiving is a lot of fun, but there's something about breaking bread that shifts and changes and creates a common like a just a joy. And you can find that joy with people over food in a really significant way. It's a mutually exciting or important experience that you're having together. I think music does the same thing, you know? Because the only real role I think people sometimes have is you tend to like what you grow up with, right? But we also, we live in such a large world where, for me and I'm old, so it wasn't Tiktok, but it was like, music videos.
Valerie Friedlander:Oh, yeah.
Jenique Jones:And I remember going home and watching MTV and discovering a world that I had not grown up with, right? I grew up with R and B and jazz and all these things, and now I'm like, listening to this big hair band, I'm listening to Motley Crue, and I'm listening to all of these things, and then I go to school, and I go to for my middle school, it was a very diverse school, and the fact that I listened to Motley Crue and Guns N Roses and all these folks made it easier for me to connect with my peers, and the fact that they were listening to, actually, it was like a very wealthy, preppy white child who introduced me to, like, hardcore rap. So, like, I had never, I didn't listen to NWA, I didn't listen to that stuff, and it's and he was like, He's shorter than me. It was so funny, little blonde guy. And he's like, Oh, you got to listen to this. But think about that, like he's from, like, the Upper West Side of, you know, Manhattan, very you know, has a bunch of money. I'm from, like, Harlem middle class, and we bonded over music. And so I just, I think food and music do that in a really significant way. And I like to tell people, like, when I was in applying for the role at why hunger, one of the questions that as a member of the staff asked me was, as a black woman, how did you get to this level? And I said, Honestly, I think it's because I have the ability to talk to white women about Sarah McLachlan, and then it's they were very uncomfortable with that answer. The older, white woman who was the recruiter was cracking up, but I was like, it creates that connection. So often we have these barriers because we think we know who people are, and then there's these little moments where you're like, Oh, you're actually like me. You too, love Fumbling Towards Ecstasy and get very emotional when you're listening to, you know the song like and suddenly that barriers down. So I think that that's, that's how I think of music, and I also think of music as a tool for social activism. I think that, you know, Harry Chapin was onto something when he created why hunger? I think he understood that his voice had more weight than than maybe others who were in this struggle. And so he was like, I'm going to use my voice to amplify other voices. I think that, you know, even if you think about folks who said that, who did we are the world? They said they were inspired by Harry Chapin. And folks had known that there was this poverty and this this famine happening, you know, in Africa for so long, but no one was doing anything about it. But yet, one song like shifted, and suddenly everyone is aware of this atrocity that's happening. I think that is, that is the power of music, and I think we don't use it as much as we probably should anymore, but just if Beyonce can get everybody wearing silver to a concert. So to speak, and people of all stripes and colors. Imagine what else she could do. Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift is getting people to register to vote. There's a real power in music that we have to really harness and use. That's what why hunger tries to do. We really want to tap in to continuing that Harry Chapin legacy of using music to amplify.
Valerie Friedlander:I love that as as a musician, that's that is really important, I mean, and I hear in that also, just like leaning into your gifts, and where do you, where do you have the power to amplify? And it doesn't, you know, we can think outside of the standard boxes of what that supposed to look like, or, or, you know, think that we're limited by, oh, well, I don't do this. Well, what do you do? What? What is accessible to you? And I will say with the music thing. I mean, one of the places I've gotten a lot of recent bonding with my kids, surprisingly, was that bye, bye bye. And think is now back in style thanks to the Deadpool Wolverine movie, and so, like, my kids are singing that, and I'm just like, this is very weird. This is like high school. What are you? What's happening right now? What is that? So I mean, but it's like, it's bonding. It absolutely when we can connect to each other. And music has a very embodied experience. You know, we're hitting things on multiple levels where we can resonate together. And I say I use resonate intentionally, because that's what music does. There's a vibration to music that we feel. So I love that, and so I'm actually, I'm going to ask you in reverse order what I usually ask, because I again, it feels very appropriate. So I have a playlist that I put together from all of my guests telling me the song, or at least one of the songs that they like to listen to when they want to tap into an unlimited feeling. So what might be one of those songs for you?
Jenique Jones:For me, if I want to feel like I can like unlimited feeling, or I can do anything, it has to be either very up tempo or really like soul stirring. And also, I think there's something about feeling joyful that creates that feeling, and even though there's a lot of controversy around her right now, but there's a song called All Right by Janet Jackson from Rhythm Nation. And you just, you just, I listen to that song, and I'm just happy, and I feel like and I think that happiness fuels you in a way. And I think back to the music video and all of that and the bright colors, and so I'd say, All Right, by Janet Jackson.
Valerie Friedlander:And I feel like you've started to answer this question... The other one is, what does it mean to you to be unlimited?
Jenique Jones:I'm not going to say it means to be without fear. I think it, for me, it means that doing, despite the fear, you know, stepping into spaces and you know being a little uncomfortable, and being comfortable with being uncomfortable, to me that that is when you're without limits is when you can do that. Because I think fear and uncomfort so often limit us. But when you can do that, I think the sky's the limit.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah, I like to say, treat them like caution signs, but not stop signs
Jenique Jones:Exactly.
Valerie Friedlander:Yeah, I love that. So if people would like to connect further, get to know why hunger. Where should they find you and the organization?
Jenique Jones:Yeah, they should find us@whyhunger.org, we're right there well, and then we're on all social platforms. Is why hunger? With the exception of Tiktok, where we're why hunger talk, someone randomly uses it and we can't get it back. Other than that, that's where we are.
Valerie Friedlander:Awesome. I will have links in the show notes for everybody, and thank you so much for coming on. I have really enjoyed this conversation.
Jenique Jones:This was fun. Thanks.
Valerie Friedlander:Thanks for listening. I so appreciate you being here. If you got something out of today's episode. Please share it, leave me a review, take a screenshot and post it on social with a shout out to me, send it to a friend or, you know, all of the above. Want to hang out more, join me on Instagram, or, better yet, get on my mailing list to make sure you don't miss out on anything, and remember your possibilities are as unlimited as you are. Allow yourself to shine, my friend, the world needs your light. See you next time you.
